Time |
Update |
14:28:06 |
Sun is shining and time is ripe to start our event! #indigsg |
14:51:22 |
Going to start soon! Indu chasing people to sit down #indigsg |
14:54:26 |
Moderator: Sam Ho.. Panelists: Stuart Koe, Hui Yee, Jaime Low, Bryan Choong. #indigsg |
14:51:38 |
SH: This debate will explore the issues concerning our LGBT community along the axis of gender. #indigsg |
14:59:01 |
Topic of debate: Can our LGBT community actually work better if we stay divided instead of being united? Pro: SK & HY. Opp: JL & BC #indigsg |
14:02:50 |
SK: Is the shared desire for same-sex relationships enough to keep us together? Fridae has tried to bring together men and women#indigsg |
15:05:11 |
[Note: Proposition=> United We Fall, Divided We Stand; Opposition=> United We Stand, Divided We Fall] #indigsg |
15:06:40 |
HY (2nd speaker of proposition): all of us grew up with heterosexual norms. But as LGBT people we need separate spaces… #indigsg |
15:06:56 |
…to avoid falling back into those heterosexual norms #indigsg |
15:08:00 |
If a lesbian walks into a gay-man dominated space, she may not feel that she can say what she wants. We need a space to … #indigsg |
15:09:10 |
… find and nurture our own voice. 1 eg: Thru running WomensNite, a lesbian space, I’ve seen women grow in confidence #indigsg |
15:10:42 |
Next speaker is Jaime Low from FCC #indigsg |
15:11:48 |
JL(1st speaker of the opp): perhaps idealistic that we have to work together. How many of us work in a purely single-sex workplace#indigsg |
15:12:38 |
it is not practical to work separately. there is limited experience if we segregate. #indigsg |
15:14:02 |
integration also helps to eliminate stereotypes. we should work together to build stronger ties within the community #indigsg |
15:16:13 |
let there be space for single genders, but to move the community ahead, we have to work together. #indigsg |
15:16:46 |
BC (from OC): Has had little chance to understand women until 2005 when they did a workshop. 6/12 were women participants. #indigsg |
15:19:09 |
… Realised when we break it down to the basics, we are all the same, beyond labels. Has wondered y women are particular… #indigsg |
15:20:53 |
… people are actually different from what he was brought up to believe. Differences are impt, & org cannot continue if segregated #indigsg |
15:22:23 |
… Why gay men should be concerned with AWARE too. Not a gay men thing, but because he sees himself as part of society #indigsg |
15:22:36 |
… should cross the gender boundary to work together #indigsg |
15:23:09 |
Now the Proposition and Opposition shall dialogue. |
15:24:14 |
SK: In some contexts, appropriate to hv both genders together, and some not. Misogynistic world, men do dominate in many contexts #indigsg |
15:25:00 |
… for women to earn that space, is something they fight for and that guys should respect. #indigsg |
15:25:25 |
… At the end of the day, what brings us together is our humanity. Laws that treat both men and women differently. #indigsg |
15:26:15 |
… But for social spaces, why should we insist that men and women should hang out together? #indigsg |
15:28:08 |
BC: you can learn so much more by hanging out with a person of the opposite sex #indigsg |
15:28:59 |
…that is how you build a relationship, by getting to know people as friends, in a close emotional relationship#indigsg |
15:30:26 |
HY: agree that there is a common agenda, eg remove discrimination. but how we achieve that is different #indigsg |
15:30:45 |
just by pulling in any random lesbian into a gay male project is tokenism#indigsg |
15:32:54 |
JL: Dialogue should take place for understanding to happen. Can’t be tokenism. Start in social context,know each other as frens 1st #indigsg |
15:33:14 |
if you don#indigsg |
15:34:19 |
SH: Question for Prop – what does the community stand to lose if we work together? #indigsg |
15:35:07 |
SK: our differences and our diversity is our strength. by becoming homogeneous we will weaken the community |
15:36:06 |
BC: Prefers to say “diverse we stand”. (SH: But what would work in S’pore?) #indigsg |
15:36:38 |
BC: Need to make conscious effort, create the space. #indigsg |
15:37:07 |
JL: Younger generation doesn’t face this issue anymore (i.e. don’t want to wk with gay men). Gender divide will ultimately fall. #indigsg |
15:37:50 |
Discussion has been opened to the floor. #indigsg |
15:38:29 |
Floor: You don’t actually disagree with each other at all. What exactly is JL & BC’s point? Within FCC & OC, also women’s supp grps #indigsg |
15:39:03 |
… we can work together while not ignoring the fact that we have differences. #indigsg |
15:40:21 |
BC: OC and FCC have always had men and women working together for specific things. But more can be done. #indigsg |
15:40:36 |
Floor: What is the diff between the 2 positions? #indigsg |
15:41:24 |
JL: Differences are not that great. Gender stereotype if we talk abt fundamental differences. We can still work together. #indigsg |
15:42:04 |
…also grp of people who are more comfortable with own spaces. But idea is to move them along – in soc we hv to mix with opp sex #indigsg |
15:43:16 |
Floor: Definition of ‘divided’? Differing definitions. Recognition of diversity is not the same as pitting oneself against another #indigsg |
15:43:48 |
… Grps out there interested in dividing us amongst ourselves. #indigsg |
15:45:00 |
Floor: there are outside parties trying to use “wedge politics” to divide the community, ie divide and conquer #indigsg |
15:46:42 |
HY: there is a need for intra-community dialogue, but each of us needs to stand up and speak out against false claims directed at us#indigsg |
15:47:00 |
SK: Shouldn’t even have to debate on those grounds, of gay promiscuity, because it happens among straight people too. #indigsg |
15:48:14 |
…religious conservatives are using this against gay men, but we should not defend ourselves. Or even if its nature or nurture. #indigsg |
15:48:22 |
… It is about choice. #indigsg |
15:48:42 |
HY: Promiscuity = stereotype? #indigsg |
15:49:18 |
SK: More common for guys to divide sex from emotions. #indigsg |
15:49:35 |
SH: Gender essentialist debate? Back to floor.#indigsg |
15:50:09 |
Floor: An even more pressing reason for alliance/collaboration is it is important to sensitise us to internalised sexism #indigsg |
15:51:06 |
… even in queer settings. E.g. Stewart mentioned TLA, called her speech schoolgirl with notecards. Belittling tone. #indigsg |
15:51:42 |
… Bryan’s ref to what turns queer women on. This framing of women contributes to widespread sexism. #indigsg |
15:52:03 |
… Even more important to use chances of collaboration to become more aware to combat these common habits of speech. #indigsg |
15:52:38 |
BC: Not an attack upon women but recognition that she is female. #indigsg |
15:53:15 |
HY: Misogynist society, misogynist terms come up all the time. Wrong to hold back from saying what’s on your mind – limiting #indigsg |
15:53:53 |
… These terms of reference can be construed as sexist, and that should be the starting point of any debate. #indigsg |
15:54:10 |
… We should recognise the sexual norms we are brought up in order to work together. #indigsg |
15:54:45 |
BC: We should create a space where we can make mistakes together. #indigsg |
15:55:13 |
SH: Is internal misogny the real problem here? #indigsg |
15:55:40 |
Floor: We need a gender-specific space for women, because often it is too internalised. In mixed gender space, norms we hv #indigsg |
15:55:56 |
… internalised act up #indigsg |
15:56:18 |
HY: In Women’s Nite, women say they don’t know what women want! #indigsg |
15:56:59 |
Floor: In Sg, we can be united over specific topics, in response to attacks. But when things are okay #indigsg |
15:57:30 |
… we might be divided. Was expecting Stewart to emphasise how we do need to be divided. Need gay men to have their own stuff #indigsg |
15:58:16 |
… The more separate we are, the more powerful we are. Rather have many grps than one big gay men/women group. #indigsg |
15:59:46 |
… Not here to fight over heteronormativity. I don’t want to be with lesbians only. #indigsg |
16:00:35 |
Floor: Thought we shld be divided to survive rather than staying apart from each other. What abt us and the larger community? #indigsg |
16:02:02 |
SK: Forced into the position by the debate format. People are brought together by common goals. #indigsg |
16:02:38 |
… Sometimes women and men can work together, sometimes it doesn’t happen, depends on the context. E.g. org what type of party. #indigsg |
16:03:19 |
HY: Clarification – heterosexual norms meant the assumptions we make abt men and women, that men are assertive/women are demure. #indigsg |
16:04:13 |
…heteronormativity doesn’t come in here #indigsg |
16:05:18 |
Floor: Lesbians dont need gay men to speak for them, we can speak for ourselves, but we need to grow to a point to be able to do tt#indigsg |
16:06:50 |
…we need to have separate groups to nurture and grow our voices before we can speak for ourselves #indigsg |
16:07:40 |
having many groups is better than one single big group. many diff gay voices representing diff gay ppl makes us more powerful #indigsg |
16:09:10 |
Floor: Division always occurs when there are differences. We tend to divide ourselves according to the constructs we live with. #indigsg |
16:09:53 |
… But we can also choose to divide ourselves by norms we choose ourselves. Historically, people banded 2gether 2 face challenges. #indigsg |
16:11:09 |
… Church grps are very organised. And we still have questions among ourselves. Are we divided? united? goal for this talk? #indigsg |
16:11:50 |
… What history do we fall back on, leave behind? How can we move our community forward? Good to hv more grps, #indigsg |
16:12:10 |
ways to develop ourselves individually and as a community. #indigsg |
16:13:59 |
Floor: maybe the way to dialogue within the LGBT community is not so confrontationally but by having a platform #indigsg |
16:14:54 |
But having many queer groups actually confuses those groups which are against the gay community #indigsg |
16:15:16 |
Floor: where is the Transgendered community in this debate? #indigsg |
16:15:59 |
Floor: how long will it take before men are allowed to attend Womens Nite? when will you know if women are confident enough to …#indigsg |
16:16:15 |
…speak in front of men? #indigsg |
16:17:06 |
Floor: When will women feel okay to let gay men into their spaces? e.g. Women’s Nite. #indigsg |
16:18:45 |
SK: Even men didn’t want to care about the repeal of 377A, and it was the women who said we have to standup for human rights issues #indigsg |
16:19:37 |
SK: We should ignore our differences and focus on what we have in common instead. #indigsg |
16:20:21 |
HY: Women need safe space (wrt Women’s Nite). #indigsg |
16:22:12 |
Floor: Surprised that people are talking about institutionalised sexism. Gay men might be afraid of lesbian women, #indigsg |
16:22:45 |
… if we expect someone to change, we need to initiate that change, be friends with them first and educate them. #indigsg |
16:23:37 |
… Danger of same-sex groups. Stop talking and do not interact, comfortable in their own spaces. Prevents greater understanding. #indigsg |
16:24:26 |
… Although we have all these groups, we should also make the effort to interact with people,shouldn’t let our impressions stop us #indigsg |
16:25:56 |
BC: OC has a male-dominated image so we always reinforce the fact that it is an all-sex group. #indigsg |
16:30:04 |
Floor: Logical fallacy to saying that all women here seem so confident and therefore no need for safe spaces. #indigsg |
16:31:09 |
… Education, yes, but it is also important for people outside the marginalised grp 2 be aware of blindness 2 their own privilege #indigsg |
16:31:45 |
floor: vice versa, if we were to say that a sauna is open to women for a night, how many men will show up? #indigsg |
16:32:36 |
Floor: if you (as a man) want to go to Women’s Nite, what will you be able to contribute? #indigsg |
16:33:17 |
63 attendees at tonight’s event #indigsg |
16:33:55 |
SK: We are all talking about the same thing. Ultimately, we all have differences & things we have in common, need to acknowledge tt #indigsg |
16:34:52 |
SK: there are differences and each of us is unique; we need to embrace that and each be individuals, not all from same cookie-cutter#indigsg |
16:36:53 |
HY: Not knowing is okay. We should be open to educating pple who don’t know. We can learn a lot by coming out of our comfort zones. #indigsg |
16:37:45 |
JL: We should not let the differences stop us from working with one another. Focus on similarities. #indigsg |
16:38:33 |
BC: Sometimes anger comes from being comfortable with yourself. If that common goal is removed, what bands us together? #indigsg |
16:40:11 |
All the panelists and the moderator received flowers from sayoni. #indigsg |
16:47:32 |
Thank you everyone for coming (and those reading), and to our esteemed organisers! #indigsg |